Tunisia’s foreign minister backs Palestinian rights and sets out red lines on migrants to Europe and the IMF

Tunisia is in the process of reform to deal with problems its economy has been facing since 2011. That was when popular uprisings brought the Islamists into a lead role in the country's interim government after the protests forced change.

Speaking to Al Majalla in the Tunisian embassy in London, Ammar said:  "We are indeed enacting daily reforms in Tunisia, although the specific details are not disclosed publicly.

"We have conducted several meetings concerning the finance law, and substantial efforts are underway across all ministries to rectify the damage inflicted on Tunisia after 2011."

He pointed to the limits on which his government would insist when dealing with the crucial issue of the economic reforms demanded by the International Monetary Fund in talks over a potential new loan:

"Our red lines encompass preserving the nation's stability and protecting the purchasing power of vulnerable segments of the population."

Ammar also threw Tunisia's support behind the re-establishment of diplomatic relations with Syria. He described the governance and representation of Syria as internal affairs that for the Syrians. "We refrain from interfering in such affairs," he said, adding:

"We cooperate with the Governments and with the Syrian regime that is for us representing the Syrian people . This reflects Tunisia's official position on the matter."

The minister, who is also responsible for immigration, said that there was pressure on Tunisia from Europe, including claims made in the media of the potential collapse of Tunisian economy. He said that this appears to be the early part of a move to get his country to act as a "guard" against irregular immigration into Europe.

He also acknowledged the increased international competition for influence in Africa. While he called for the improvement of relations with Russia, he clarified that military cooperation was not discussed during his recent visit to Moscow.  

Below is the text of the interview held at the Tunisian Embassy in London on 13 October:

How was the Arab Foreign Ministers' meeting in Cairo?

"The statement did not live up to the gravity of the historic moment we find ourselves in; we are amid a new and profoundly serious historic situation.

"While expressing my reservations, I refrained from calling for a halt to the voting process. Subsequently, other countries also conveyed their reservations in writing after the meeting concluded.

"On our part, we lodged a robust reservation, articulated by President Kais Saied , who entrusted me with the task of expressing reservations about every aspect mentioned in the statement. The text outlining Tunisia's reservation is available and appended to the statement."

As you mentioned, this is a historic moment, with the events of 7 October coming  50 years after the October War of 1973.  But it became one of division rather than unity in the Arab world, didn't it?

"We do not wish to nurture the idea of division. Tunisia's policy has always been based on bridging perspectives and it is keen on being constructive in its positions and in its relations with all sister Arab countries.

"We respect all countries and their positions, but we have our own position [and] we call for it to be respected. Tunisia's stance on the Palestinian issue is well-known to everyone and has not changed, and it is enshrined in the constitution.

The Palestinian cause is a matter of people's rights, and we believe that peoples' rights cannot be forever obliterated. It is unreasonable and unacceptable, not politically, not humanely, and not by any standard.

How do you view the events of the 7 October, the attack carried out by Hamas, and to what extent will it impact the future of the Palestinian cause?

"In Tunisia, we advocate for the rights of the Palestinian people and do not want to enter any division. We adhere to this vision and stance.

"However, in light of the recent developments, it seems that there is a green light for the occupier to carry out operations and to kill whoever they can kill."

What will this lead to in geopolitical terms?

"Any reasonable person must realise that the fundamental solution is to grant the Palestinian people their rights and put an end to the occupation and all its consequences.

"If this is not done, all indicators warn that things may develop for the worse in the future."

Do you believe that what happened contributes to helping the Palestinian people obtain their rights or the opposite?

"I firmly believe that the Palestinian people will attain their rights, and it is for the actors to understand that it is time to change their thinking.

"The solution must be political, and it must grant the Palestinian people their rights. In my last discussions with British officials, I was very clear, confirming that what happened is evidence of the failure of all those involved in the Palestinian people's issue.

"They must change their way of thinking and their policies. I conveyed this to Foreign Minister James Cleverly and Lord Tariq Ahmad, minister of state for the Middle East and North Africa."

Did the British ask Tunisia to align more with the Western position?

 "Not at all. They are aware of Tunisia's position and the content of our statements.

"They have expressed their position and vision, and on our part, we have expressed our position and vision. Returning to the history of humanity, such policies are undoubtedly bound to fail."

But British officials have recently visited Israel, and Britain sent military equipment, with intelligence and military support. Britain, specifically, adopts the Israeli narrative completely and the British military cooperates with the attack on Gaza. Was this part of the discussion with British officials?

"The British officials did not request anything from us.

"They tried to convey their positions, and we, on our part, reaffirmed the Tunisian stance. We reminded them that history has shown that peoples' rights cannot be obliterated. We told them that they need to change their positions in line with their values because persisting in this policy will erode their credibility and make them a minority in the world.

"Furthermore, force is not a solution because ultimately, when imposed by the force of arms, it leads to a loss of credibility, and it is a fact that peoples cannot be defeated by weapons, no matter what kind they are."

The Tunisian government is known for its stance on political Islam...

"This is not just the Tunisian government's stance but the Tunisian people's stance.

"The Tunisian people are not docile but resilient and love life. [Political Islamists] have governed the country since 2011 alongside other parties and have lost all credibility due to their associations with foreign entities.

"They have failed on all fronts: politically, economically, and financially, and they placed Tunisia in a very difficult situation, and the Tunisians have rejected them."

It is known that one of the Islamic groups in Tunisia, Ennahda Party, has an "excellent relationship" or an "alliance" with Hamas. How can Tunisia balance the Palestinian issue with its rejection of political Islam represented by Ennahda Party?

"We do not link the two issues; the Palestinian issue is a fundamental matter, a matter of a people. We do not meddle in Palestinian domestic affairs; it is beyond our purview. Our focus remains on the Palestinian people's cause and their inherent rights."

Is there serious diplomatic communication taking place regarding the ongoing military operation and the potential for a negotiated resolution between the Palestinians and Israelis, including a political path?

"There is indeed ongoing consultation among certain countries, although Tunisia's stance is widely recognized.

 "Some nations may explore avenues to re-establish communication channels. These are ideas that have yet to fully develop. In Tunisia, we are supportive of any efforts that promote the Palestinian cause and its benefits."

Concerning the relationship with the European Union, there was an issue related to immigrants and the European financial assistance provided, which was the subject of objections. Could you elaborate on this matter?

"Regarding the European Union, the divisions and challenges primarily originate from their side, not ours.

"On 16 July in Carthage, we signed a memorandum of understanding, at the insistence of European leaders, such as President of the European Commission Ursula von der Leyen, Dutch Prime Minister Mark Rutte, and [Italian Prime Minister Giorgia] Meloni.

"During these discussions, we emphasized the necessity for a shift in their approach towards establishing a strategic partnership founded on mutual respect between both parties. This conversation extended beyond immigration concerns.

"The European Union should not seek to fulfil its objectives without considering our interests and priorities. We aim to cultivate a partnership that is devoid of exploitation and interference in internal affairs. The European side indicated their understanding and agreement with these principles. Furthermore, they expressed their readiness to reconsider their perspectives, even with regards to matters of democracy and human rights.

"However, this is not what happened. Maybe because certain countries within the European Union remain divided amongst themselves, and the perspectives of their experts have influenced them, preventing a shift in their mindset.

"They have continued to maintain their narrow viewpoints. We have communicated to them the imperative need for a change in this way of thinking, emphasizing that we do not seek aid.

"Furthermore, we reject any misrepresentation of the situation, particularly concerning the $60 million meant to address the Covid-19 pandemic. We told them that Tunisia has not created the Covid-19 pandemic, the Ukrainian conflict, the situation in Libya, or climate change. Regrettably, they fail to acknowledge any shared responsibility, and in our challenging circumstances, they make demands that are, in essence, impossible to meet."

What are they asking for?

"They are asking us to close the door to illegal immigration, even though we are doing on our part what they are not doing."

So you mentioned that there are concerns of a project to settle immigrants in Tunisia?

"Certainly, this is their desired outcome. They are actively working to steer Tunisia in this direction by applying pressure through media channels and making statements regarding the potential collapse of Tunisian economy, as exemplified by Mr. Joseph Borrell's remarks.

"This appears to be a prelude to exerting pressure on Tunisia to assume the role of Europe's 'guard' and settle illegal immigrants. This is entirely unacceptable. Like any sovereign nation, we prioritize safeguarding our borders.

"Despite our limited resources, our military is engaged in the daily rescue of illegal immigrants. We have urged the Europeans to reconsider their approach. The agreement we signed in Carthage on 16 July encompasses several key aspects."

The Europeans say that you are not committed to the memorandum of understanding...

"After signing the memorandum of understanding, some countries may not have been satisfied with what was included in some of its clauses; they have internal problems.

"Some European countries do not agree on the memorandum of understanding, and we told them that this is your concern; agree among yourselves. We have not deviated from the memorandum of understanding signed in Carthage, and we have not deviated from the strategic partnership."

Will Tunisia continue to reject the $60 million?

"Tunisia rejects it, and they are now trying to contact us to settle the matter. We have never deviated from our commitments."

Moving on to the Syrian issue...

"Tunisia has played a significant role in advocating for Syria's reinstatement within the Arab League.

"This aligns with Tunisia's commitment to upholding its core principles, and we hold great respect for the Syrian people, with whom we share strong historical ties. The past events represent a regrettable chapter.

"Among the initial responsibilities entrusted to me by President Kais Saied was the expeditious reestablishment of relations with Syria . As a result, we appointed a Syrian ambassador to Tunisia, and I have excellent relations with the Syrian Minister."

The sequence of events began on 7 May, 2023, when several Arab nations, including the UAE and Tunisia, made a significant decision within the Arab League. This decision involved the reinstatement of Syria, with Saudi Arabia playing a prominent leadership role, following a roadmap outlined during the Amman conference.

In response to this development, Damascus put forth a series of requests to other Arab countries. However, some of these nations argue that Damascus has not effectively fulfilled its obligations as outlined in the roadmap. What is Tunisia's position? 

"We do not interfere in ways that worsen crises among Arab brothers.

"Tunisia consistently seeks to facilitate dialogue and understanding. Regarding Syria, our position is straightforward. Additionally, we do not intervene in the requests and stances of other nations."

 Are you satisfied with the level of Arab rapprochement with Damascus? 

"Our primary objective is to enhance our ties with Damascus, enabling Syria to regain its rightful place within the Arab League, a move we wholeheartedly endorse.

"In terms of our bilateral relations, we remain open to collaborating with our Syrian counterparts across various domains."

Regarding various Arab expectations from Damascus, including issues such as Captagon [an addictive drug produced in Syria which is smuggled into Gulf states], the refugee and displaced persons situation, and the need for a political realignment concerning Iran, what is your general stance on these matters?

"As I have emphasised before, our stance remains one of non-interference, and we refrain from taking positions that could exacerbate conflicts between nations.

"We support Syria's return to its rightful place. The question of Syria's leadership or representation is an internal Syrian matter that we do not seek to influence. We cooperate with the Governments and with the Syrian regime  that is for us representing the Syrian people . This reflects Tunisia's official position on the matter."

What do you think of Russia? 

"Tunisia's positions remain steadfast and unwavering. I do not face any difficulty in upholding our clear stances, as we are guided by principled non-interference in the affairs of other nations."

How would you describe the Saudi-Tunisian relationship and Saudi support for Tunisia? 

"I recently had a meeting with my colleague Prince Faisal bin Farhan, and I'm pleased to note that it was conducted in an exceedingly positive atmosphere.

"Tunisia has always enjoyed excellent relations with the brotherly  Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, and we are committed to maintaining and strengthening these ties, God willing. Our efforts are directed towards this goal."

What types of financial assistance, in the form of loans and grants, has Saudi Arabia extended to Tunisia, and was this aid contingent upon the implementation of specific reforms?

"We have received a $400 million loan and a $100 million grant from Saudi Arabia. In fact, we are indeed enacting daily reforms in Tunisia, although the specific details are not disclosed publicly.

"We have conducted several meetings concerning the finance law, and substantial efforts are underway across all ministries to rectify the damage inflicted on Tunisia after 2011.

"Our primary objective is to foster partnerships, not only with Saudi Arabia but also with other brotherly nations. We aim to promote investment, trade, and facilitate dialogue among entrepreneurs to create wealth.

"Tunisia is a country with immense investment potential, despite attempts by some influential figures in the West to misrepresent our nation.

"Despite these challenges, Tunisia remains an attractive destination for investment, and we anticipate further improvements as the government continues to implement reforms. It's important to emphasize that Tunisia is not a nation reliant on aid, and this is a point that needs to be clearly understood."

Tunisia has committed to implementing critical structural economic reforms. However, there has been a refusal to adhere to the International Monetary Fund's requests and the 'letter of intent' setting out the reforms.

"In regard to the International Monetary Fund, our lines of communication remain open.

"We have no problem communicating with  the IMF officials and we  have conveyed to them the need not to cross the redlines, namely, the stability of our country and the protection of vulnerable groups.

"It is imperative that we do not compromise Tunisia's stability, and not put it in the balance. we are fully aware of the necessity for economic reforms, which are already in progress without external prompting.

"The Tunisian leadership and its people are best positioned to determine the feasibility and timing of these reforms. This is a decision that rests with Tunisia more than anyone else, enabling our leadership to set the agenda."

Could you elaborate on the red lines that Tunisia deems essential to safeguard?

"Our red lines encompass preserving the nation's stability and protecting the purchasing power of vulnerable segments of the population."

Does this mean that Tunisia will not agree to sign the "letter of intent" as requested by the IMF? 

"We've consistently emphasised that Tunisian reforms should align with what we consider essential, rather than being dictated in a manner that could harm Tunisia.

"We strongly oppose such an approach. In the past, the Tunisian government reversed a decision to raise bread prices during the time of the late President Habib Bourguiba due to tragic consequences. President Kais Saied is resolute in avoiding a repetition of such incidents."

You have a good relationship with Russia and visited Moscow... 

"I spent a part of my childhood, approximately five years, in Russia. It is a vast and significant country celebrated for its rich history, culture, and literature.

"My proficiency in the Russian language may have played a role in strengthening my connection with Minister Lavrov. When I assumed the responsibilities of minister of foreign affairs, appointed by President Kais Saied, Minister Lavrov kindly extended his congratulations."

You have professional experience in London and established connections in Russia. During your visit to Moscow, there was a specific request made, what was it?

"It's crucial to underline that Tunisia maintains its autonomy in shaping its international relationships, and Russia holds a significant position as a partner.

"Historically, even during the Cold War, we fostered positive relations with the Soviet Union, alongside our strong ties with the Western world.

"Our relationship with Russia is excellent, and there is room for further growth. Currently, there are specific requests, such as the potential procurement of grain, due to the adverse impact of the ongoing war. We have already engaged in discussions with the Russian side on this matter."

"Both parties remain open to cooperation across a broad spectrum of domains, encompassing grain supply, tourism, trade, and higher education."

In light of the ongoing geopolitical competition involving the United States, Russia, and China in Africa, which also encompasses parts of North Africa, and with Russia deepening its military ties with Algeria, can we expect a similar effort to bolster military cooperation with Tunisia?

"It is important to emphasise that military cooperation was not discussed during my meeting with Lavrov."

It's evident that there is a competition unfolding among the United States, Russia, and China for influence in Africa. Your recent visit to South Africa, the host of the BRICS summit, indicates your perspective on this rivalry. Could you elaborate on the underlying causes of this competition and speculate on its potential future developments?

"I firmly believe that the world has reached a pivotal moment, signifying the end of the post-World War II era.

 "We are now navigating through a new phase, one that requires us to adapt and be prepared. The established financial and economic world order that emerged after World War II is no longer in effect, and it is essential not to lament the past.

"A positive aspect worth noting is that Tunisia possesses a significant political asset in its strong connections with African nations, as we have historically contributed to supporting liberation movements across the African continent in their struggles against colonialism."

What is the reason for competing for Africa? 

"The driving force behind these dynamics is primarily economic and financial, particularly for major global players. Tunisia's approach is rooted in safeguarding its interests rather than forming alliances against other nations.

"For instance, during my visit to St. Petersburg, Russia, alongside fellow African countries, I made it clear that our gathering was not directed against those who were not present. Tunisia maintains cooperative relationships with Western countries, Russia, China, and we hold positive ties with India and all African nations. This flexibility is a distinct advantage for Tunisia.

"During my recent visit to the United Kingdom, I emphasized the importance of heeding Tunisia, as our nation has consistently conveyed potent messages throughout its history. Tunisia has a track record of not engaging in aggression, warfare, or territorial conquests.

"Our interventions have consistently aimed at reconciliation and constructive engagement, rather than destruction. Our engagements with African nations are not only natural but also emblematic of Tunisia's identity as an African nation of great significance."

We have in Africa AFRICOM, Wagner Group, and a Chinese base in Djibouti. Where does Tunisia stand among them? 

"Tunisia does not engage in alliances that pit one against another. Our approach is firmly grounded in peace-building, which necessitates avoiding alignment with one alliance against another.

What is Tunisia's position on the war between Russia and Ukraine? 

"Tunisia maintains a clear stance in its international relations. We continue to uphold positive relations with Ukraine, devoid of any outstanding issues.

"In the war between Ukraine and Russia, Tunisia has not taken sides or intervened on either side. Our vote at the UN unequivocally opposed military intervention and aggression, emphasizing our commitment to resolving conflicts through peaceful means.

"This position in no way hinders our constructive relationships with both Russia and Ukraine. Historically, we have engaged with Ukraine through avenues such as welcoming tourists and sending students to its universities. Our hope is for a swift resolution to the ongoing war, ideally as soon as possible."

Tunisia has a problem with political Islam... 

"It is, in fact, them who take issue with Tunisia.

"Our nation has endured an experience that ultimately proved to be a failure, and it's imperative that we extract valuable lessons from this history. The Tunisian people are known for their love of life, and Tunisia stands as the crossroads of diverse cultures and civilizations, having been shaped by the influence of many over time.

"Should one endeavour to impose change upon our societal fabric through violence, while yielding catastrophic political, economic, and social results, the expected response is evident. Tunisians have emphatically voiced they don't need this."