Philippe Lazzarini: Saudi push for two-state solution ‘the only game in town’

We know the Knesset voted to ban UNRWA, which will be enforced by the end of January. This bill has different interpretations: it could be just in Jerusalem or in Jerusalem, Gaza and West Bank. What is the best reading you have on this?

No one knows because no guidance hasn't been shared with the agency or the international community. We are talking about two bills. One bill aims at prohibiting the presence and the activity of UNRWA in the sovereign territory of Israel, and for Israel, this would mean East Jerusalem, though the international community considers East Jerusalem to be occupied territory.

The second bill prohibits any contact between UNRWA officials and Israeli officials. If this were implemented, it would be impossible to coordinate our activities or get a visa to go to the West Bank or Gaza. This would effectively end our ability to operate.

The bill is aimed at defaulting the agency in the entire Occupied Palestinian Territory, and the real objective behind this is to strip the Palestinians of their refugee status.

Should these bills be implemented, it would not only have disastrous human consequences, such as, for example, depriving hundreds of thousands of schoolchildren of education and depriving millions of Palestinian refugees of having access to primary health care, but it would also, in the future, further weaken the international community's instrument which has been put in place to address the plight of the Palestinian refugees: UNRWA.

If UNRWA ends its activities, its responsibilities toward Palestinians' human development, like education and other key social services, would go back to the occupying power: Israel.

I understand that there are two bills, but at the same time, we hear from some Israeli officials, some Israeli ministers in the government, who are talking about West Bank as well, annexing the West Bank, which means this could effectively mean the severing of any relations with UNRWA, even in the West Bank and Gaza.

We have all heard the harsh rhetoric toward UNRWA coming out of Israeli politicians' mouths. Have you been able to communicate positively with the Israeli government, at all?

There are different types of relations. We have official relations, which are difficult at the moment. (Israel) has waged a campaign of disinformation trying to label UNRWA as a terrorist organisation that needs to be dismantled. In fact, I would argue that this has been an objective since the very beginning of the war.

Then, we have operational relations. Our director in the field is in daily coordination with their Israeli counterpart to organise and coordinate the movement of our convoys.

Are you now persona non grata?

I have no visa.

Does that mean that you are persona non grata?

My visa was not renewed, so I cannot return to Jerusalem. Not having a visa as a commissioner-general, while my work is based in Jerusalem, effectively means I am persona non grata.

Do you have any idea if Israel has budgeted for the takeover of UNRWA activities?

Again, this is a question we should ask Israel. UNRWA is committed to delivering our services to Palestinian refugees until the day we are not in a position anymore to deliver these services. But the clock is ticking; the bills go into effect on 30 January.

I have asked Israel to rescind the decision and not implement it because I believe it would have terrible consequences. The first consequence would be the collective capacity to respond to Gaza's unprecedented humanitarian crisis would be weakened at a time when it should be boosted. UNRWA is one of the main providers of assistance. 

And if there is a ceasefire tomorrow, who will care for the hundreds of thousands of girls and boys deeply traumatised, currently living in the rubble? No UN agency is geared to provide public services of this nature. Only public institutions and the government can provide education at this scale. So, the impact could possibly destroy an entire generation, which could sow the seeds for more extremism and resentment in the future.

UNRWA also provides 15,000 to 18,000 daily medical consultations to Palestinian refugees, meaning about half a million people receive primary health care. No other organisation is in a position at this scale to take over the primary health system that UNRWA has put in place.

If we phase out today, it's like throwing the baby out with the bathwater, and you will create a vacuum, a huge vacuum, and not only in Gaza, but you will also create a vacuum in the West Bank and East Jerusalem.

In the West Bank, we have 50,000 children with no school, and half a million people are going to our health centres; who will take over these activities? Will it be the Palestinian Authority? The PA is hardly in a position to provide services to non-refugees among the Palestinians in the West Bank; they are on the edge of economic collapse themselves. So, that would be an absorption that the PA would not currently be able to take over.

At this moment in time, we have no viable, political, and lasting solution in place, which means there is no institution to take over the activities of our agency.

What is the political aim of weakening and sanctioning the UNRWA? Is it aimed at killing Palestinians' 'right to return'?

There is absolutely no doubt that the objective is to strip the Palestinians of their refugee status. But in fact, their refugee status has absolutely nothing to do with the provision of services. Even if the provision of services would come to an end, the refugee status of the Palestinians would remain. The political dimension of the Palestinian refugee question is enshrined in a completely different resolution than the one which has created UNRWA. The 'right to return' is not enshrined in the UNRWA resolution. It's enshrined in a resolution adopted before UNRWA was created.

I want to ask about the two-state solution proposed by the Saudis first: What is the timetable for this, based on your communication with the Saudis? Second, what kind of role will the UNRWA play in this roadmap?

This is an important initiative. It's a revival of the Arab Peace Initiative. It is undoubtedly the only game in town today, and basically, this initiative also spells out a roadmap or pathway for a Palestinian state and empowered Palestinian institutions.

Within this framework, UNRWA can play a role in providing education and primary health to millions of Palestinian refugees and, at the same time, build the capacity of the future State of Palestine so that at the end of the process, we have a clear party to take over from UNRWA's activities.

I think there is a roadmap, right? Some meetings have already taken place?

Yes, there is a road map of meetings, it's making progress, you have a coalition of a number of member states. I don't know where it will go, but at least a proposal will be put on the table.

It is to the General Assembly and then the Security Council, right?

I'm not the right person to ask, but the objective is to put a proposed road map for future normalisation on the table, which also addresses the Palestinian question and a road map which would lead to a political pathway for a two-state solution in the future.

I saw you were in Riyadh; you are very much engaged in this activity.

Yes, I am very engaged in bringing UNRWA within this framework because I strongly believe that being involved will help protect the critical services we provide for Palestinian refugees during the political roadmap transition period. It is crucial to maintain our services until an alternative is ready to take over.

"If we do this, we can maintain our services until there is an alternative.

Do you have any comments on the 'Generals' Plan', which some say is already being implemented in north Gaza?

I can't comment on the plan per se, but the bulk of the north's population has been moved to the south. You still have the remaining 70,000 to 80,000 people, estimated, completely under siege in northern Gaza, mainly in Jabaliya. This is in order to pressure them to move out of north Gaza. We also estimate around 200,000 Palestinians still remain in Gaza City, which is sandwiched between the Netzarim Corridor and the north of Gaza.

The remaining population of Gaza is all south of Wadi Gaza, so most likely, from what we see and with the level of destruction and the tight siege in the north, it looks like the goal is to 'encourage' the remaining people there to go to the south. But until then, it's imperative we have access to them to give them the assistance they need.

Going back to your question, yes, there seems to be an intent on the part of Israel to push out Palestinians from the north.

Now, there is a reconciliation process between Fatah and Hamas, and they established this kind of committee to rule Gaza. Were you approached to be part of the 'day after' plan?

No, we haven't been approached for that. As you indicated, it's more of an effort to foster and promote reconciliation among Palestinian factions. It has nothing to do with UNRWA. I think many discussions have taken place about the future governance, at least on how the Palestinians perceive it in the future.

What I can say today is there is still no real plan for the 'day after' in Gaza. We still hope that there will be a ceasefire. It's long overdue. But until then, there looks to be a long and difficult period ahead, which makes getting rid of an agency like UNRWA so dangerous. Unfortunately, it looks like human suffering will continue into the foreseeable future.

Finally, a question on Syria. We know that the Assad regime has been toppled. Now, we have a new interim administration. At the same time, we know that thousands of Palestinians are there.

UNRWA used to play a big role in Syria. Do you already have any plans to contact the new government in Syria? What is your vision about the role of UNRWA in Syria regarding Palestinian refugees?

We provide assistance for about 400,000 Palestinian refugees from Aleppo, Homs, Daraa, and Damascus in the country. We have been very much at the periphery of the latest events and developments. Palestinian refugee camps have not been impacted or affected, per se.

In Syria, like in other neighbouring countries, we have been traditionally kind of auxiliary of the state in terms of services provided to the Palestinian refugees since we were focusing only on the Palestinian refugees, whereas the government focuses on Syrians.

I expect our activities to fully resume in the coming days. I know there is a lot of uncertainty now in Syria. People are experiencing mixed emotions: jubilation and hope but also anxiety. The hope is for a smooth political and inclusive transition.

Has UNRWA already contacted the current government?

Not that I am aware of. I know that locally, our colleagues will be looking to engage but there hasn't been any formal engagement yet.